Friends, Family & Carers Forum

[111]

My daughter is 7 months pregnant.  My son has severe schizophrenia (hears voices 24/7, despite medication). Both are young adults. 

During my son's severe psychotic episodes (he's had 5 in total), he has targeted his sister, such as trying to lock her in the house, chasing her down the street etc.  On several occasions the police have needed to become involved.

In addition some of the voices he hears talk about her in a sexual way (through his voice), which has made her incredibly uncomfortable/sickened - totally understandible.

Now she has a baby on the way she has decided she doesn't want anything further to do with him. She says she doesn't feel safe and doesn't want her baby near him. She says she will not come to birthdays, Christmas etc. if he is there - so has told me I need to make a decision ... him or her and her baby. 

As a mother I understand my daughter's fear, but also as a mother I don't want to shut my son out of all family events and out of our lives. His schizophrenia has led him to become very solitary with no friends and with so many symptoms of his mental illness, he finds it difficult to manage on a day to day basis (such as obsessive-compulsive symptoms). How can I shut him out? But how can I ingore the very real concerns of my daughter?

Has anyone experienced this type of situation and does anyone have any suggestions?

[-karma-]

Hello @111

welcome aboard 

What a dilemma you face, I can see your perspective and feel for you that you have been put in a position of having to choose.

Could you speak to your daughter about this, acknowledging her of course and her valid concerns, but also your concerns as a mother to both of them?

What would/could be the compromise for her? That she comes for some of the time on Christmas day, so there is limited exposure as opposed to all or nothing? 

If you can't appeal to her, is there somebody she would listen to more in regards to this? It sounds like an accumulation of events over time, and that now she's taking a stand.

Please know that you can speak to someone at Sane on the helpline if you'd prefer?

Sane Helpline

1800 18 7263

[Acacia]

Hi @111 and welcome to the Forums.

Sorry to hear about your predicament. You should never have to choose between your children. As @-karma- suggests, I think there are always ways to compromise and establish boundaries that work (at least reasonably) for everyone. I feel confident that you’ll find a way to have them both in your life without them needing to see each other, at least for the time being. It sounds like it’s still quite early days with your son’s illness so perhaps there will come a time when your daughter feels safe to be around him again.

Thank you for sharing a bit of what's happening for you. I think you’ll find these Forums are a great place for exchanging stories and ideas with other carers. If I understood correctly from what I've read, I think another member, @Annie2 has been in a similar situation with her stepson. @Annie2 please feel free to share any tips that have worked in your situation.

There are quite a few members here whose sons have experienced schizophrenia or psychotic episodes. @Francis @Louise @Alicia perhaps you have some insights on how caring for a son who experiences psychosis can affect the family dynamic. Have you ever been faced with tough decisions as a result?

Welcome once again @111 and please keep posting. I look forward to hearing how things go.

[Francis]

I understand to a degree where you are coming from and have been through similar situations. It is extrememly hard to hear the inappropriate words that are expressed. A couple of times I have had to tell my son that he is way out of line and walk away. Other times I have ignored and not reacted. In the worst times, i have had to point out what the persons role was in his life and that was enough for him to realise he was distorted in his thinking. When it was personal towards me as his mother (very hard to hear) i would tell him how inappropriate it was. He only did this when he was very acute and off meds so it was easier for me as I would say that i have had enough and hand him the meds to take. He always complied and i would supervise meds daily until he stabilised.
In terms of your daughter, hopefully she will be able to have a relationship with him in time but safety for her and the baby is paramount. Your son also needs his family in his life as they often have lost everyone else. I can only talk from my experience but when my son was unwell we all just supported him more and put boundaries in place. I always felt sorry for my other younger adult son living it too but I always made sure he was safe and never tolerated any form of bad behaviour towards him from my unwell son.
I also recall telling my son that his brother needs all the support he can get as he has no one else. Luckily in 24 years both boys have only ever had a harmless push and shove a couple of times.
Our families new what our lives were like and encouraged us and my son to attend everything to keep him feeling part of life. We were late to everything and often had to leave early, he would go outside for cigarettes and join us again in silence. We all just accepted him for what he was going through and i believe it helps them feel connected again to real life. Having said all this, i would not accept inappropriate behaviour in any situation and tell that directly to your son. My son is gentle, sensitive and responsive to us most of the time. Except during acute episodes and in those situations I would not be leaving the house and would monitor my him at home. Im hoping at your special occasions your son is more stable and can control his behaviour towards his sister so your family can gather together. Your daughter and her new born is something to look forward to. Your son may just have to experience that joy at another time in his life. Follow your heart, make sure all is safe and maybe try and get your son to another mental health practitioner for some more support. 🙂

[Louise]

Hi @111 and welcome to the forums.

It's a tough dilemma, but you are already getting some good support and advice here. 

You do not have to choose between your children, but it may take time and effort to find a way forward which works adequately for everyone.

How lovely that your daughter is soon to have a baby! Congratulations to her, and I hope the baby brings great joy to her and to you.

It is very sensible of your daughter to be thinking about ways of creating a safe environment around herself at this time. She needs to be safe and she needs to feel safe. That may require keeping herself seperate from her brother for a time. It may mean she has to take steps to avoid him...and you may be able to support her by taking steps to avoid having them together for a time. I think it will help if you can accept her decision and take her seriously. It does not necessarily mean that she will never see him again.

In the meantime, there will be ways you can continue to support your son. I hope so, especially as it sounds as though his illness is quite serious and he has little other support. Can you encourage him to get further medical help and/or other supports outside the family? Without it, he is unlikely to improve and could even get worse.

Please keep posting, and I wish you all the best xx Louise

[Appleblossom]

My last post vanished ... I think the mods ideas are lovely ... but would like to say to @Acacia that there are not "ALWAYS ways to establish boundaries REASONABLY for EVERYONE"...That is YOUR FANTASY.

with all due respect Acacia, you are being unreasonable and unduly optimistic and making false generalisations that can lead to skimming over the serious issues here....leading to further damage to families and and possibly death ... please be careful when you generalise ... Please re-phrase that to "there are sometimes ways ... " or drop the "always" ... its a cute idea but a childish fantasy from a book or over-privileged position.

At the time of the scenario mentioned in my last post ...   in previous year I had dealt with 5 major deaths, a Supreme Court Case, had DHS swarming all over me for the so-called "good" of a particular child in my care ... but me and mine were just pieces of dirt ... I was seeing head honcho psychiatrist ... but did he recommend an extra session ... NO ... We all need to be careful when we generalise, especially if we are paid money and set up as professionals.

[Appleblossom]

Found the post

Oh @Francis and @111 if only my mum had the humility and support to ask such a question and take concerned and considered actions.

I had a similar experience to your daughter ... in being a young mum with inappropriate MI brother ... except that I never cut anyone out or requested any exclusions.

I think it is VERY REALISTIC to set limits on son but not total exclusions ... family holdays and anniversaries etc should be open ... and recognise that the young child and his or her relationship with young mum also need protection ...

Time will tell ... but I deeply wish you do not go through the horrors that I did with my mother being in denial about MI and doing some very dastardly things to me and my motherhood.

I will describe them for my benefit and maybe others can learn HOW NOT TO MANAGE this situation.

Expect some escalation of unresolved sibling rivalry but I believe if you mange it well ... you have a chance to have genuine family events.

Whn my biological daughter was 6 months, and we were visiting the family home where brother was living. Note my brother had had about 6 hospitalisation at this time and his grief re sister's suicide complicated by his past  incestuous rel with her.  He usually refused treatment and medication but "self-medicated". He had a flare up and was psychotic and borderline because of what was going on in his marriage and mother being a general self-righteous nag and an ignorant nag ... I did my usual to try and reduce his distress and de-escalated as I had done often in the past. He demanded I give my baby daughter to him to hold ... and I was caught in great quandary ... I loved bro ... and turned from husband to brother to mother ... she said I should ...I talked him down ... he agreed to go to a therapist and I handed him my baby girl for about 5 minutes whilst hovering anxiously over them both ... then he handed her back to me. Mother was satisfied and we avoided calling the police or ambulance that time. Apparently it proved he was not going to hurt anybody because he was a good person

PROBLEM: He never really followed through with therapy or meds ... over the next 8 years violence to property, self and threats (mostly to my mother) escalated ...  I know my mum had a hard road ... and always counselled against accepting bro's violence ... but she did not do the right thing a lot of the time ... did not seek professional help ... and hated and blocked my attempts to get it ... had all the help she needed from God etc .. and her priests etc.

Dont play into that kind of BS ... my brother had a gentle side too ... but manipulations to prove that psychosis or rage are suitable conditions to handle vulnerable BABIES in are not on.

After .. my husband and I agreed that it had been wrong to succumb to the blackmail but let it go as nothing had happened and we were dealing with a lot with his ex carrying on like a pork chop .. my ex husband and I agreed on a lot of things ... but he was also a bit arrogant about my whole family as coming from a "lower" socioeconomic level of society.

[Annie2]

I am so sorry for what you are experiencing.  I can't begin to imagine how much pain and hardship you would be going through, having this division between your children.  I have had a similar experience, where my step son came to live with my partner, my daughter and my granddaughter who has just turned 1. My step son had a mental illness and started having delusions.  They were very scary, and the last one involved him thinking he was the father of my granddaughter.  This placed my daughter and granddaughter at risk.  As my partner did not believe in medication, or treatment, so things were not going to improve, I had to ask them to leave.  Either I did this or my daughter and granddaughter would have to leave.  This broke my heart. I had been with my partner for around 12 years.  Hence my partner who is bi- polar, wanted nothing to do with me as he thought his son just had a crush on my daughter and I was over reacting.  I wasn't. 

i think the advice to hang in there and just have a separate relationship with your son and daughter is good. If your daughter does not feel safe, or feels uncomfortable with your son, you have to respect that. It is best to have a separate relationship with both then no relationship with one or the other.    Don't try to force them back together as this wouldn't work and could possibly  back fire. Give your daughter time, as this would be difficult for her too. As your son's illness may be controlled over time and his behaviour may improve with proper medication / or treatment  

look after yourself too.  Do things that you like, and maybe try meditation.  Make sure you get in contact with you And how you are feeling, let your self grieve.  realise this is not your fault and you have no control over this situation, as hard and as heartbreaking as it is.. It is the way it is. I went and still am on a journey of self discovery. Reading books by russ Harris? Such as the reality gap, and Wayne Dwyer titles. Also speak to a counsellor for you, and ask for strategies to help you through  

Take care, I hope that it all works out for you.  I really do.  This is a very difficult time and be kind to yourself

[CherryBomb]

Good morning @Appleblossom,

I don't want to detract from the conversation here, but I I feel like I need to jump in as it seems it has gotten tense.  As I mentioned last night in our emails to each other that I could totally understand how the word 'always' pushed your buttons. I agree not everyone has 'always' has the option to establish boundaries, and I think it's great that you have explained why this offends you. As you have pointed out, there are bigger and complicated issues that are out of people's control that can prevent 'always'.

However, I do want to highlight and remind everyone that if you have an issue with what someone has written, I think it's important to identify the issue rather than identify the person as the issue. My issue here for instance, is that I'm am concerned about this following comment to @Acacia in particular. 

---

Appleblossom wrote:

with all due respect Acacia, you are being unreasonable and unduly optimistic and making false generalisations that can lead to skimming over the serious issues here....leading to further damage to families and and possibly death ... please be careful when you generalise ... Please re-phrase that to "there are sometimes ways ... " or drop the "always" ... its a cute idea but a childish fantasy from a book or over-privileged position.

---

The statement, 'you are being unreasonable...' makes an issue of the person, rather than the issue. This statement followed by, 'it's a cute but childish fantasy from a book or over-priviledged position' sounds like a harsh assumption about the person. As the guidelines state, the Forums content should not be personally attacking so it's really important that we don't identify people as an issue. 

Again, I complete understand where you are coming from with the word 'always' and I think the suggestion to use 'sometimes' is productive.  I think this is productive is because it focuses on the issue and provides a solution. 

[Appleblossom]

Thank you @suzanne for engaging.

I guess 30 years of serious effort put into finding out about appropriate boundaries felt invalidated by the "alaways". Even though I had patiently made points about the problems in generalisations and boundaries in the forum a mod had used authority to make a statement that I did not think was true.

I was triggered and I jumped into a "you" mode .. without even realising I was triggered .. sorry if @Acacia was upset ... but I do believe that we do need to be realistic rather than optimistic. I will try to stick to the issue ..  I can do optimistic ... but it is not always the answer.