Lived Experience Forum

[Appleblossom]

Hearing you about the over cleaning problem ....

@Owlunar 

Like you I took after my mother in thrift and work ethic. 

She however was not a clean freak, even tho it is a big cultural thing in Holland to have clean houses.  SO I took after her in that regard too.  I also took a unit in Soil Science in my first degree... so feel more comfortable finding a balance between good and bad dirt and bugs and plants.  That said I think I am also finally finding a balance in people. 

@Sahara A few years ago a lady who was def a narcissist was a problem in my life.  Learning to wise up, but still finding it hard. Thankfully she has gone and I will not invite any more in so close again.

It is all about balance tho and having a good home, or coming from a good home means many things to different people.  

Perhaps the bottom line is priorities and caring?  I would have loved this kind of discussion when I was in my 20s, but better late than never.

Hope you both have a good week.

[Owlunar]

Hi @Appleblossom 

I think my mother was paranoid about cleaning - about having to have everything - like everything perfect for the visitors - even the garden had to be immaculate

But I am glad I inherited that trait even though my health has made it inadvisable to do many things around the house when it comes to cleaning and gardening now - I can do some of those things but often pay with pain but I do all my own cooking

My mother was thrifty to the point of being mean in some respects - maybe it was because her mother was a house-keeper - the live-in with other servants variety - early C20th - Gran was widowed early and in charge of someone else's affairs - the main thing handed down our family would be responsibilities regarding other people's money - and nervous people like my mother could take it to extremes - enough said - I need not relive some of the meals we had because at least we had meals - some people didn't

I believe in balance - moderation in all things including moderation - I think a little bit of grubbiness can build the micro-biome - after all my kids my kids enjoyed the sand-pit and managed to cope with a bit of that in their diet - not to be encouraged of course but not to be freaked about either

I try to be moderate in all things - it keeps my mind on an even keel too 

All the best Apple - it's great you post here - and it would have been good to have talked about these things when we were younger - we were so needy of it then and it didn't seem to be around

Dec

[Sahara]

Hi @Owlunar  and @Appleblossom ,

I talked to my friend last night, everything was normal, and we had a good conversation. It's unbelievable when we have such a great connection like that to think that she might have serious problems with telling the truth and being manipulative. That is why these type of people manage to get to you and manage to stay in your life. They actually can be great friends or come across as great friends. They are not all bad and if they were "all bad", then of course we would abandon them and not look back.

An interesting development: there is a chance now that my friend will get back with her boyfriend, when I thought that he was long gone from her life! I wonder what he made of her behavior and I wonder if her manipulation caused the end of their relationship? I don't know. If he is coming back for more bad treatment, then he is brave.... But I believe in her own weird way she loves him.  The thing is, listening to it all from the outside, it sounded like an awful relationship, where he was the abusive one???? Only emotional abuse - not physical. 

That is the thing with covert narcissists, they always present themselves as the victim.  So I never even met the guy and don't know his side of the story. 

Anyway, after talking to my friend, I feel a lot better. I guess its a matter of watching and listening and gathering more information. I am seeing a new therapist next week (I have only seen her one time before) and so I might ask her all about this. 

[Sahara]

Hi All,

the latest phone call from my friend was a downer.  She went away for a weekend with two other friends (one of which I'm close to) and came back disheartened. She spent an hour on the phone to me complaining how she felt left-out, about how she felt somewhat 'ignored' by the other two; I suppose she was implying that it was deliberate, that she is the 'victim' of their mean behavior. I don't know.

I realize that she preys on me to boost her failing ego - which I suppose in common enough among people who lack a sense of self - they have to get affirmed somehow. I tried to turn things around and say; "could it be that while you felt left out, you might not have been objectively left out, you just had this feeling that was unpleasant, but maybe unjustified?"  Like, I did not want to buy into her reality, because I'm not sure how true her reality is... 

I am probably over-thinking this now! But yeah, I think there is something in it, I think my friend can't cope if she is not constantly the center of attention and that she tries to get sympathy when she really needs to look at her own behavior.

[Corny]

I have read your thread @Sahara @Owlunar @Bestlife @Appleblossom because I have lived experience with NPD from a male parent and it is a topic that came up a lot in my last admission to the ward.

I have noticed in the outside world narcissism seems to only be spoken of in the context of a romantic relationship, often heterosexual, where the women has been abused by her male lover, but here in the hospital it is interesting because %90 have been parent/child relationship, not a spouse. Maybe we all end up in psych wards 

But in real life, in my own experience what you read on the Internet or watch on YouTube about narcissism only portrays one type of dynamic, and I agree with @Bestlife if the behaviour is unacceptable who cares about the label or diagnosis, it is irrelevant. I don't think your friend flirting makes them narcissistic, probably inappropriate if it was over the top, and it could have made the other people very uncomfortable and they may have lost respect for them, but there could be some competitiveness between you guys, some chicks can be really competitive with one another and maybe she wanted a reaction from you.

Living what I have lived through in my life and learning what I have, I will say I think you will find it is a big mistake to assume that people with NPD are destined to be alone and nobody wants them. Lots of people want them. It is not always an abusive-abused, someone is trapped & must be saved! defenceless dynamic, sometimes the abuse is mutual, including physical abuse and this can include between 2 women.

Think about it, why would someone with a personality like that put them at ease if they were a person with options to leave? Why would they be drawn to return to that. To me, it is obvious, and there must have been violence from both sides and staying together feels safe that that secret will remain a secret as long as they stay together. They neutralise each other and ease each others conscience and then call it true love. But I think also that some people find aggressive relationships attractive, almost thrilling. This may be hard to believe but over the years I have heard of many such relationships, gay and straight where women have been just as off the scale as guys. 

Things are not always as they appear, and neither are people. I think that it is unhealthy to think so black and white. Sure, often there is a victim and an abuser, but there's also other possible dynamics at play and their public profile or how you perceive them could be totally wrong. 

Maybe because it is your friend and not someone you live with like a parent, you think more black and white and believe most of what you read online. But when you live for years and years with someone wired like that you realise that there are lots of different scenarios and sometimes it is a case of like-attracts-like. If she wants to get back together with her boyfriend so be it. Maybe it is an abused-abusive dynamic, and you say it isn't physical but how do you really know. 

In the end if a relationship is making you more miserable than happy what is the point of staying friends. Relationships are supposed to lift you up not bring you down. I also don't really believe in covert narcissism, I just think that they are people who have higher personal insight into being narcissistic. 

I don't think it is worth hanging onto friendships out of fear of being lonely. If it is really as bad as you say don't you think it is better to move on. I have wasted so much time with bad friendships looking back on my life, and wish I knew what I know now in my 20s.

I think if something isn't right, it isn't right. There's lots of great people out there to meet and it is about quality over quantity. 

Corny 

[Sahara]

Hi @Corny ,

thanks for your thoughtful reply. There is a lot to take in, in what you have written. I see that I have spent a lot of time going around in circles trying to analyse my friend's behavior, when I probably should have made a instinctive decision about her long ago.

Things have come to a head recently. Due to living some distance apart, I do not see my friend often, but I regularly talk to her on the phone. Last week she told me that she wants to come to my house for a visit, which would be for at least 2 or 3 nights, given the distance. A few days after she told me this, I had a panic attack.

I really was beside myself, feeling frightened of her! I did not want her to come here; I did not want to have to put up with her for 3 days in a row! Mine was a very physical reaction, I had an instinctive 'fear' response.

I have since sent her a nice text saying that I will be to busy with other things and that she wont be able to come. It took all the courage I had to send that text - I was afraid that she would be angry at me - because I am very sensitive to anger and I often feel the anger in her voice. She is a person who is angry at the world. She is always so angry.

The last call I had from her was very "off". It's almost like she was getting into very strange conspiracy theory territory when she described the way some of her friends have been treating her. In fact, it did not make much sense at all. I seriously believe she has gotten worse over the last six months! I don't know.... but I kind of don't want to know, anymore. 

I had a polite reply to my text from her and I was so relieved. It's the first step in slowly letting her go from my life, hopefully for good. It's going to be difficult managing her calls, though.

[Sahara]

An Update:

I finally let go of my abusive friend! It took all the strength I had, but in the end I was so proud of myself. My life continues to improve each week without any contact from my friend - it's really amazing how people like that can have such a negative effect on us and drag us down.

What happened is that I had another major panic attack and started losing sleep over her. I was so anxious about getting her calls, because she was always so over-the-top angry with the entire universe that it was uncomfortable to listen to. I kept feeling that she would turn on me and be angry at me, when all I had done was try to support her.

I had to go and see my G.P. and get some short-term anxiety meds. It just shows how devastating so much negativity and unhappiness can be, when it is streaming in over the phone-line twice per week!

Then I stopped answering her calls. I felt mean, but I had to put myself first in this case. Eventually, I sent her an email explaining that I was taking some time out (just some time out in general - but not referring to her or blaming her in any way). She wrote a very short, polite reply and then has thankfully left me alone.

Within a week, my anxiety resolved. Then my self-confidence improved and has continued to improve. I am no longer subject to her subtle put-downs. I feel so much more myself.

Let's hope there is no further contact form her, but if there is, I will be confident to ignore it. 

[FakePerson]

Good to hear you did the right thing. After all of this time, do you ever think back to the times you shared a good belly laugh together? The kind of laugh that you realise you will have to stop, or you won’t be able to breathe? No, you don’t think back to that, because only one of you are capable of it.

[Lucygirl]

Hi there as a first time user I also have an acquaintance who I catch up with for coffee once a week but I have noticed that I am being put down with her constant negative comments towards me.  She has acquaintances who she uses as she can gain from these two ladies eg. cheap concert tickets etc.  The way I am spoken to and the way she speaks to the ladies who she can benefit from is noticeble.  I have now decided that I no longer need our coffee catch ups.  I have only ever been a loyal person and I am the one that does the listening she is not interested in any thing I have to say so that says a lot for this person. I would say also in your situation this is not what I could call a friend and will be her loss.

[Matityahu]

Well done! It can be so hard to see that we are being pulled under - especially for sensitive empathic people who tend to trust easily.